Introducing Remote 3

News
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I guess I can consider myself lucky that the R2 currently does just enough so I can use it as my daily driver. Nonetheless I’m also left quite frustrated by this whole saga…

So basically you (Unfolded Circle) apparently fucked up the IR functionality on the hardware level. OK, I guess that’s always a risk with kickstarters. And I get it, you are a small company without excessive cashflow, so I’m not even expecting some kind of free amendments. As mentioned previously, all I hoped for was a revision two of the dock with better IR capabilites: Is the IR blast from Harmony Elite connectable at the dock? - #20 by leo

Then you introduce a revision 2 of the dock. But instead of positioning that as fully compatible hardware refresh, you decide to go all in and basically make it a new model (yes, I know it is software-compatible…). And your special redemption offer for R2 owners is a 20€ discount? Which, as icing on the cake, is apparently also offered to people from the waitlist who have thus far spent 0€ on Unfolded Circle Gear? Wow. Don’t let me even start about the notion of buying a new remote after less than one year of usage with the current model.

So no thanks, I’ll pass. Who knows, maybe Remote 4 is already around the corner. Maybe I’ll consider that again, if there’s some serious improvements to the software side until then…

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How do you come up with only a 20 EUR discount? The 49 EUR dock 3 offer is just for Remote Two owners and that’s 40 EUR off from the early bird pricing of 89 EUR. You can also just get a R2 version of the new ir blaster for 10 EUR.

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I’m talking about the Remote 3 standalone vs. Remote 3 Bundle pricing, where the “bundle upgrade” would be free for R2 owners - the difference is 20€. I thought I made it clear that for me, the suggestion of using a dock 3 with r2 (and then also a dock 2, because who doesn’t like devices sitting around the shelf) is quite pointless, and thus the offer to buy a standalone dock 3 is also quite pointless.

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At least if you previously had problems with the ir coverage it’s not pointless to use a D3 with a R2 and the D2 just as a charging dock. There were people that even preferred a separate charging dock to be more flexible with the placement of the ir emitting device.

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@harvey28 No, it’s not Gmail.

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Sure, everyones needs are different. That’s why I said that for me, it’s pointless. I would have happily backed/bought a new version of the dock, had it been fully compatible with my remote (and that, of course, includes charging). But instead I’m left feeling frustrated with outdated and inferior hardware.

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This is the way it should have been from the beginning. A hub and a separate charging station. Most other smart remotes do it this way.

One needs to charge the remote from the position of where it is used. Unfortunately, the IR (in my case) doesn’t work from there.

This was a design error.

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How is the hardware outdated and inferior? I use a Beyonwiz PVR which heavily relies on the 4 colour buttons the R2 possesses. The R3 does not include these so for my purposes I see the R3 as inferior. Like you said “Sure, everyones needs are different.”

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Inferior obviously at least in terms of IR. I actually agree about the color buttons, though I don’t use those that heavily…

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Have you tried ADB (Android debug bridge) integration built into HA? To me it’s noticably faster granted the 2 devices I control it with are connected via Ethernet and not WiFi but sending anything from my phone is faster than BT. Obviously network setup comes into play. I’ve also got various scripts to launch any app installed.

Personally I was going to wait but may preorder the R3. Still thinking about it but it’s still pricey even at the early bird price. I will gladly upload my scripts or provide them as needed but they are universal so will, or should, work on any Android device. I even use it on my Dune Solo which runs a custom Linux Distro but also has Android available through a VM/Docker solution and it works perfectly regardless if in using daily via voice or my phone. Voice is all local also so that speeds things up vs cloud based solutions. Just have to enable “network debugging” in developer options. The great thing is those ADB commands aren’t going to change because they have been baked I to Android forever.

I can understand the hardware design changes but also understand how early R2 owners might be bummed but the remote is running a custom Linux distro so any software changes won’t effect future features. At the same time, weak IR is weak IR and that never should have slipped through QA.

So it’s either the software will work the same outside the IR issue. At least on paper. While I don’t know the exact numbers I guarantee a big difference in the price is due to that OLED. While smaller OLED touch displays have gotten cheaper, a slightly smaller LCD is way cheaper, especially to mass produce so I get both sides as there are still software issues to work out and I’m willing to bet any software issues that exist in the R2 will exist on the R3 whenever it does get released.

From my understanding, they quit making the ARM chip used in the R2. At a minimum they would have to swap chips. At that point might as well make other revisions to lower costs. If anything you want the R3 to be successful because if it isn’t and they close shop, you would be stuck with whatever issues exist and they would never be fixed…

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I think if the Dock 3 was compatible with Remote Two, or even if there was a simple adapter that could have been placed inside to make it compatible, people would be somewhat less frustrated. The idea of buying a Dock 3 remote that will also require you to have the Dock 2 present for charging, to handle the weak IR, is fairly klunky. You’d have to tape over the top of Dock 3 just to stop family members from trying to put R2 into the wrong dock for charging. Just seeing the both of them would be a constant reminder of the failed hardware and lack of a suitable replacement. This is to say nothing of the R2 sitting on a desk unused because of the current software state.

I get the desire to refresh the product but it’s an uneasy feeling seeing new hardware being sold to even more users in a bid to bring in more cash flow, in the hopes that more software help can be hired to get the remote to what was sold 3 years ago. I feel that the new
owners will be joining us in waiting on product support/features, which unfortunately, are likely to be further delayed due to the impact of a small team dealing with another Kickstarter and the pressures it creates.

That said, I wish the team luck.

…Donovan

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They’ve already announced that after the kickstarter there will be an IR blaster version available for Dock 2 owners (assuming you have a Dock 2).

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Outside some points you made on the dock, I have to disagree here and this is just my take on it working for a software development company for over 10 years. While not a dedicated developer, I work with them every single day. This is obviously just my opinion so take it for what it’s worth.

A - I don’t think this will slow down software development at all. The people writing the code, and have been for 3 years probably aren’t dealing with the logistics of ordering all the parts and manufacturing. I would Imagine UC has others to deal with this but I don’t know their internal team and who does what.

B - By my count from their their change log there have been 12 updates this year. That’s not included any updates from 2023 but I don’t think most got there hands on the actual product until 2024 so I am not counting those. The latest being on June 20th. That’s 2 updates a month and while the software obviously wasn’t ready when shipped, they are obviously dedicated to working out the bugs while bringing new features although personally current bugs come before new stuff, but the new stuff wasn’t ready at launch, so it’s kinda a catch 22 there. If software development had slowed down, you would have noticed because software/firmware updates would have slowed down or not had so many fixes or features added in them.

C - If anyone working on the software development was also involved in the hardware side, that part is done, the RC3 looks finished. There are probably some minor things left, I saw they are allowing different colors but nobody from the development team has to be involved in that. So, no issues on the dev side that I see going forward.

D - This isn’t like “rewriting” everything from scratch. It’s like the Pixel 8 Pro vs the Pixel 8a. May not be the best analogy but with the Pro, it’s been out of over 8 months, has a better screen and some other minor perks. The 8a, recently released, uses almost all the same hardware but doesn’t have as good of a display but is around 300US less. Do you think they had to make major changes to Android from the Pixel 8 Pro vs the Pixel 8a outside some hardware drivers? I imagine not. Once that is done, it’s done, outside some minor code changes development will be 100% the same. Stuff like changing code for the LCD vs OLED screen is an EXTREMELY minor thing in the grand scheme of things.

E - If this is running a custom OS and UC did what I believe they did, which is take an open source version of Linux on ARM and strip out the stuff that isn’t needed, while leaving in and adding the stuff that is, that part is done. It will continue to evolve but the pace will be dependent on how fast they can bring in cash to higher in new people. So, the R3 succeeding means existing issues fixed faster and quicker software updates for the R2 and the R3. A LOT of hardware products do this these days but it still isn’t without it’s issues… Also, I believe the spent 2 to 3 years on the development and while not ready at launch, what is these days regarding features? i am NOT trying to downplay the obvious “basic” functionality not working, they had two options, start shipping orders or delay. People were already frustrated with the delays. I am old enough to remember when every product wasn’t missing half the promised features at launch and having to wait for a firmware update via the internet. If they didn’t get it right once shipped and major issues were found, a total recall was needed because no update feature was avaialbe. I do miss those days but they are over and the complication of software development is the reason why *usually. The devs also probably worked 50 to 60 hour weeks without pay for the “hope” of it being a success. I would want return on my time also if I was in their shoes. Not an excuse, just saying.

From an interview i saw on Youtube, which I will link if needed (it’s rather long) someone from UC said they quit manufacturing the ARM chip in the R2. While there would be some supply around, this would actually make the price of those chips go up as UC wasn’t the only one using that exact model chip. Now, I am taking them at there word for this so just keep that in mind. If true, they had to replace the ARM chip regardless of what they did. So any new R2 units coming out would possibly have a faster CPU then the orginal. Would this be an issue for you also (not trying to be condescending, honestly interested in your answer) ?

I think at that point they had enough feedback that making the R3 was the right decision. You already had to change the CPU, so, why not make other changes while you are at it to hit a lower price point? The R2 will always have the better screen, the main benefit of the R3 over the R2 is 4GB of RAM vs 2GB on the R2. I can’t say how much this will matter in the long run for performance, it might not matter at all or it could. See the R2 and R3 specs below, which does confirm it’s a custom Linux distro… I don’t know how much storage is available out of the box for the R2 but I highly doubt the extra eMMC storage is needed for 90% of users. I do wish they would list the clock speed of the quad cord ARM chips used but I bet the performance differences are pretty insignificant. It really seems like cutting costs while improving design was the main goal, that and global inflation. Also, there was NO way of fixing the IR issues without a hardware change and I DO think UC needs to do something to address issues current R2 users are having. I also think it would have been great if the R2 remote just worked with the R3 dock. I believe it can from posts above, but no charging so you would need the R2 dock for that. That is a legit issue for current R2 owners. I do wish they had just slapped a USB C charger on the remote itself. Depending on your needs, the dock may be overkill for your setup anyways.

Lastly, it’s a kickstarter and this is always why I am weary of them. It’s one thing to come up with a great product and bring it to life but a completely different thing to mass produce that device for sale. I imagine the people working at UC made some wrong moves along the way, if you have never dealt with logistics and manufacturing before you are. I was weary of ordering a Bambu Labs printer for this reason and I have seen successful kickstarter campaigns go under, not because the product didn’t sell, because they completely hosed up this part and essentially ran everything into the ground. Even after the kickstarter I waited six months for bambu because I read there customer support was almost zero and I imagine UC has had to deal with this in a major way. Customer support just sucks, it’s obviously needed but it just costs money and time and some don’t plan on these types of things. I waiting six months for them to get manufacturing and better support setup before purchasing one. This is also one of the reasons I held out on the R2.

R2 specs
SOC: quad core 64 bit arm
RAM: 2GB
eMMC: 8GB
operating system: linux based unfolded OS

R3
SOC: quad core 64 bit arm
RAM: 4GB
eMMC: 32GB
operating system: linux based unfolded OS

Considering everything learned during the R2 hardware roll out, I expect the R3 to go much smoother and the code and issues on each device to be 95% to 100% identical regarding any issues or bugs once the R3 actually ships to people. I have read countless articles of people who have had failed and successful kick starters, most failed were their first for the above reasons, or reaching out to a manufacture in China only for them to take their money and run. Second time around they would go there, talk to the owners and see the manufacturing plants before handing over any money. I imagine UC has learned a lot of lessons in this regards.

If this had been commercially launched and sold on say, Amazon I would see the big deal but kick starters are what they are and you are always taking a chance, especially if the people behind it have never done one before.

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That was my interview with Marton, and he indicated the ARM was marked as “not recommended for future development”, so not unavailable, but not advisable to build into a new product.

The delay on Remote Two wasn’t great, but the NEEO Remote was fully funded in February of 2015 with an estimated delivery of May 2015, it eventually delivered in September of 2017, and they didn’t have a pandemic with global chip shortages to deal with. I think Unfolded Circle did a pretty solid job and never lost site of the end goal.

Excellent post. Lots of great points raised there.

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Very good and insightful interview., Thanks! I do remember him saying something like “this will make everything easier for everyone going forward” so that makes sense. I would imagine the average lifespan of an ARM chip is around 4 years (speculation) on the manufacturing side. “Not recommended for future development” is a fancy way of saying “we are going to quit making this chip is roughly a year, we are going to focus on manufacturing newer chips, pick something else”. Just didn’t want anyone to think that was a bad thing and it’s common. You can still run Android on a 10 year old phone, not the latest version of Android but all the apps still work. This is something UC probably never thought of (speculation). They may have used that chip for 2 years before releasing the first batch, putting it closer to 3 years now. You are so focused on getting a product out the door that you aren’t thinking about ARM chips and how long they are usually manufactured before stopping and moving on to newer SOC’s. This is something that existing companies already know to check. Regardless it probably did make the price go up as they could of used it on the R2 or R3 if they wanted, it just would of been a bad idea. Not talking smack about UC, just another point about starting a kick starter and everything that is needed outside building a really cool device. I wouldn’t have thought about it either.

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How dare they create and innovate new products for their business!

They should only cater to my needs and wants.

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Just need to wait, right.

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I don’t see an email till today.

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Finally had time to play a little with the remote again. Where can I find the general integration in the configurator? I need it for WOL, but also for my Trinnov processor and Envy videoprocessor.
I only see the AppleTV, Home assistant etc integrations.

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Not all available integrations are pre installed. There are some which must run as an external integration or must be downloaded to the remote. Here is a list of current integrations I already told you a few month agao.

The Request integration from kennymc gives you among others WOL. I use HTTP-Post a lot as it is something like a Swiss army knife for me.

RS232 will be available in the R3 dock which also will work with the R2.

Perhaps some of your devices have a HTTP API also.

Ralf